Curse

Loxguard · Jun 02, 2005, 02:52 AM // 02:52

You've got to be joking when you say a Monk can hold their own in PVE combat. As a level 12 Monk/Mesmer, with all of my points into divine favor and healing prayers (I'm a solid support build), I am LITERALLY unable to defeat some level 7 or 8 enemies if they are able to heal themselves. Sure, they can't defeat me, but the fact remains I can't do the mission by myself. But, in a group I'm an EXCELLENT healer, and everybody loves to have me around.

To say that Monk's shouldn't be able to heal themselves if they focus on others is, no offense, ridiculous as well. When I'm in groups, my heals draw TONS of aggro, and if I can't heal myself, who can? Another monk? That would mean a group of 4 would need 2 monks to be "sufficient". So what, you suggest we give other classes healing abilities? So they can heal AND fight.

Now, what I feel DOES need some rethinking is the healing ability of a monk as a secondary profession. Too many people seem to pick up monk as a secondary, and are able to heal at nearly the same proficiency as a monk primary. I've seen groups that don't even need monk primaries if they have plenty of members with monk secondaries.

Basically, it looks like you want to turn monks into an unarmored healing class that can't heal themselves. In EVERY MMORPG I've played, a group was incomplete without a healer, and that is the way it should be. Don't cry out for nerfs because you don't like the fact that you need a healer to survive.

Eclair · Jun 02, 2005, 03:04 AM // 03:04

You don't need a real monk to do missions. I've sucessfully done thirsty river with a random PUG with Alesia only (1 try with the group too). I've done Thunderhead keep with a random PUG, no monks or warriors, just Mhenlo and Lina for the healz (1 try). Now with the new update henchmen are infused with 3 pieces of armor, so you shouldn't even need real monks as a necessary part of the mission anymore =P

Just be glad monks in this game are not overpowered like they are in RO. (High Priests in RO can tank better than Lord knights while maintaining max heal and party buffs. They also dominate pvp because they can usually take on 3+ other characters)

Basically, monks are fine as they are.

Dagbiker · Jun 02, 2005, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loxguard

You've got to be joking when you say a Monk can hold their own in PVE combat.

i beleave i may have posted wrong ( my fault ), but what i ment was that insted of taking a way from the monks make the other classes able to heal them selves, at the very least. i did not mean that the monk was able to solo, and was king of the school yard.

[quote=Loxguard]Basically, it looks like you want to turn monks into an unarmored healing class that can't heal themselves.[/q]
this is not what i want to do, in fact this is the last thing i want to do. what i would like to do is not have the monk play the most important role in the game. i want to balance the game.

Goonter · Jun 02, 2005, 03:38 AM // 03:38

If youve ever been to some of the tougher missions (underworld) or even try pvp and ever been a team of 8 with no monk they (or maybe you will if your not a monk) well complain. "What no, monk?" alot of times Ive seen, "What only one monk?" No other class gets this reaction.
Another example, Ive seen (and maybe some of you have too) monks offering to join a team if the team paid them x about of gold. This is balanced?

They are always essentual, there skills are always for the right situation.

So no Loxguard.
I know I said that it would have been cool to have healers with a lot of skills that heal others and not himself. But then I added, a healer should then have skills that heal and protect him but not others. This would mean the healer would have to balance his skill set like other professions do, for the situation. Remember, a healing monk is always good in any situation with a team. Other classes dont have this benefit. The other classes can be suited for most situtions. However once they are built it makes them even more situational. This makes the most diverse classes suck at random or unknowable encounters.

But anyhow, whats done is done. Monks are how they are and I think "nerfing" them would create a hugh outcry in the community.

Im sort of repeating myself, but what Ive been suggesting this whole thread is not nerfing monks. Im saying it would help all classes if the other classes raised thier defencive standard.

buggsy · Jun 02, 2005, 05:59 AM // 05:59

I play monk. When im in a group and see another monk, I get insulted. When I see 2 more monks including me, I leave. Those are the most underpowered inneficient groups around.

Kishin · Jun 02, 2005, 06:17 AM // 06:17

So I take it you never PvP, where you really want to have at least a pair of monks, if not a trio if you can get them?

Monks aren't supermen. In an eight person group, being responsible for healing 7 people is a bit of a strain. Its hard to support that level of healing as just one person, with a relatively limited energy supply.

Also, do you still get insulted if the other monk is a Protection Monk and you're a healer? Since they're filling a completely different niche?

Moral: Don't confuse inefficiency with practicality. a six man group can (and does quite well) run on one monk, but 8 is an unnecessary strain.

PrimeHealer · Jun 02, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

have the people that complain about monks ever tried really playing one? Probably not, they are not the easiest class to play and yes if we do good then people say so, but the same goes for if we do something bad we get yelled at or told we suck etc...its gotta be one of the most stressful posiotions to play in any game. Even if for some reason (which happens alot) that the mob the group is taking out hits the warrior 3 times with crits then warrior goes down, often I hear why didnt you heal me, well its really hard sometimes to pull off a heal in 2 seconds so again its the monks fault. Oh and soloing with a healing monk is completely out of the question, now Im talking about a pure healing monk, not one with smite and healing. Therefore the monk is not as "self sufficient" as people make them out to be. There are no healing druids, clerics, shamans, or any other type of priest class in this game, just one and that is the monk, so of course you hear alot of people asking for them...duh. In pvp and what seems like pve the monk is 1st on the hitlist and if the group isnt paying attention then bye bye healer, so ontop of watching out for yourself tremendously you're constantly looking at HP bars of others and have to be quick on the reflexes, plus our ability to heal ourselves isnt that great at all, so that is why it is more or less a necessity to have a 2nd or 3 rd monk in the group so they can help heal other monks. Monks are not played by just everyone, it takes a certain person I think IMO to play a pure healing class, and if you were to nerf a monk then we would start getting, "monks cant heal worth a crap and my party keeps dying" So I say before we start thinking monks are over powered and all that, go roll yourself a monk and play with him, Im not just talking a low level one, play him past ascending and in tombs then come back and state your post. I'll bet your attitude will have changed about them by then lol

buggsy · Jun 02, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32

It doesnt matter how many monks you have in PvP, you are always the first target, and the first to die. And the first to die after you get rezed.

In PvE, you need 1 monk and thats it.

Im going to level up my monk and elementalist character on PvE, and im gonna get every elite skill I can find. And try to unlock every rune. Then im going to create a PvP E/Mo, with knockdown air skills, heal party, and maximum energy storage. Then Im gonna kick some PvP butt. Im gonna stay way back, spam heal party, and if any warrior comes after me, Im gonna knock em down or take them out. Or i'll use water skills and slow theyr movement so I can run away.

Primary monks in PvP are just useless because of enemy tactics.

Empirism · Jun 02, 2005, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

You don't need a real monk to do missions. I've sucessfully done thirsty river with a random PUG with Alesia only (1 try with the group too). I've done Thunderhead keep with a random PUG, no monks or warriors, just Mhenlo and Lina for the healz (1 try). Now with the new update henchmen are infused with 3 pieces of armor, so you shouldn't even need real monks as a necessary part of the mission anymore =P.

- oh, well...if you can tell me who go through hells precipe without primary monk or two, just note me

there are missions which can be go through without primary monks if you are stronger than mobs there, but in long run at least one healer is must have on teams (dont have to argue the fact)

"Basically, monks are fine as they are"

agreed

Goonter · Jun 02, 2005, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Actually, as a ranger I can go through hells precipe with another ranger, an elementist and henchmen. (of course 2 of them are monks).

And I do play a monk. Yes it is taxing and challenging. No, we should not take away from there ablities.

Primehealer, I think you would support my stance then. Other classes could use to have there own defensics as to help you control the damage in team of 8.

Lets consider again the monk boss I was talking about. He could heal himself, but the couldnt take us out. So whats happening here is a class that can completely defence or completley use offence.

Apply that to a warrior. A warrior could turtle into a defence. Here he can block with great success. But he cant attack. If he does, then he cant block. In another stance (mirror shield) he redirects elemental damage back to the caster at half the damage, but while its activated, he cant attack. How to get around this? A smiting monk attacks could go around his armor and stances completely. As well as some other tricks that necros or mesmers may have. But long as warrior doesnt fight, he should at least survive.

Rangers the same but with evasion. He's in an evasive stance that he cant use any skills in, just basic attacks or a run that increases the time to set a trap by 33% while in the stance but the next trap takes 50% longer to do. How do I get around it? Hit em with moves that cant be evaded.

...and another thing. Have that charm animal skill taking up a slot do something for you. Like calling your animal swiftly to your postion and not attacking at all. As long as hes in this "stance" he's in rest mode and his health bar will eventually go back up. (you know, like everyone elses does went they arent fighting) How do I stop it? Hit the pet once do prevent the regen, or continue to attack the pet and kill him.

Mesmers the same but with illusions, ...Ive already list some examples of that earlier.

But you get my drift.

In the end, these things dont make them impossable to stop or get around. It just means you have to know your enemy and adjust to the unexpected.

These are just random brainstorming ideas. Someone earilier mention that adding these defence capablities to armor istead would be neat. Ok, maybe. Whatever gets the job done to make it possable. The idea is to allow monks to be a most helpful addition and not a neccesary asset.

And I already know that they are not as needed as some would generally assume. (like I said, it is possable to do hells precipe without'em, cuz I did) However, the general assumtion is a reflection of the games balance. I think my example about the monk boss is too.

Goonter · Jun 02, 2005, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by buggsy

It doesnt matter how many monks you have in PvP, you are always the first target, and the first to die. And the first to die after you get rezed.

.

In PvP if there are 2 or 3 monks then you could stand the chance of being the second or third person to be targetted. Allowing you time to heal the first or second targetted monk.

Keira Darkwind · Jun 02, 2005, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Please, do not weaken monks...

Both in PvE AND PvP, we are the first to die. Everything starts to wail on us, and we get taken down. Please, leave my **** armour alone.

AMEN. Lower my armour any more than it already is, and we won't last 2 seconds. As it is I'm always the first target, and I can't heal my team if I'm dead.

Acce · Jun 02, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I'm also think that monks are a bit to important for a team in the game.

I see a few reasons for this
PvE and PvP
1. Monks are basically essencial as most other classes are not capable of self heal on a suffecient level (unless they are /mo ofcourse). The primary monks on the other hand compensates for this bigtime. I don't know how many times a whole party dies only a short time after the monk has been slain.

PvP.
Usually the monk is the number one target to kill, because even if there're other targets, anyone that gets killed will be up and running around 7-11 seconds after he's been slayed if the other teams monk is alive and kicking.

I'm not saying that they're overpowered, but other classes are not really good enough att self healing, meaning that a monk is basically mandatory for any team. I think that it's ok that a team needs one monk, but I don't like that adding another monk into a team is a safer card then gambling on a crappy <insert any class here other then monk>.

The balance between the monks single target healing capabilities vs. other classes self healing could use some adjustements.
If it was up to me, I'd increase the recharge time for monk single target monk healing spells but maybe strengthen the mass healing spells (and improve self healing for other classes).

wgregory87 · Jun 02, 2005, 02:39 PM // 14:39

every party needs a monk. it is to survive. there is no complex reason to why people need monks. it is not that they are overpowered. it is that when someone is a monk it is EASY to find a party because they can HEAL eveyone.

as for comparing to a ranger; a ranger benefits a team less. rangers are a great soloing class due to their ability to have a pet, their quick speed, their self healing, their stances and their high damaging arrows. i don't see mesmers getting shafted in parties so i don't see why you'd mention this. actually most parties will take any class as long as they have a warrior or 2 and a monk. if you're getting left out of parties maybe its because the people don't like you ..

Kishin · Jun 02, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by buggsy

It doesnt matter how many monks you have in PvP, you are always the first target, and the first to die. And the first to die after you get rezed.

In PvE, you need 1 monk and thats it.

Im going to level up my monk and elementalist character on PvE, and im gonna get every elite skill I can find. And try to unlock every rune. Then im going to create a PvP E/Mo, with knockdown air skills, heal party, and maximum energy storage. Then Im gonna kick some PvP butt. Im gonna stay way back, spam heal party, and if any warrior comes after me, Im gonna knock em down or take them out. Or i'll use water skills and slow theyr movement so I can run away.

Primary monks in PvP are just useless because of enemy tactics.

Ok, I understand now You've only played Arena PvP, judging by this statement. The depth of tactics in the Arena is essential "OMGWTF a Monk rush him kill kill kill!" and then the entire enemy team pours over the hill at you. Yes, the Monk tends to get murdered this way, generally because his teammates suck and aren't doing anything to prevent it. Primary Monks are the lifeblood of any good team, and sometimes you get people who don't understand that.

Secondly, your Elem/Mo build isn't going to do you much better as a healer. Heal Party is an incredibly inefficient way to do healing, as most likely your whole party won't be damaged at once, and furthermore, since you don't have Divine Favor, you can only heal for a whopping 67 points of damage per cast. Add that to the fact that it costs 15 energy, and you're already in the hole for energy because you're spamming attack skills (Including Gale, which causes Exhaustion) in an attempt to peel people off you, and you'll see you're probably in even more trouble than you were if you're a primary Monk. Being an Elementalist, you're still a priority target, after all.

Sounds like to me you're just disillusioned. Don't give up, is all I can say, and don't take a no brained bum rush to be the end all be all of PvP.

Goonter · Jun 02, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I hope this doesnt turn into a "monks are powerful and need to be nerfed" thread.

I'll reinterate my main points so you can understand and not think that, that was ever my point or reason for posting this.

- A healing monks skills are relivent for any situation when he is on a team, no other class has this benefit.
- The monks class in general has a offencive and defencive balance. He can spam skills for attack or spam skills to survive. No other class has this benefit.

I dont think we can help the fact that healing monks are perfect for any situation. That would nerf the class, and its to late for that.

I do think we can beef the other classes so people dont feel like they need a monk if they dont want one.

(Also, Ive given suggestions here as to help those more situational class prepare for or work within a given situation.)

PrimeHealer · Jun 02, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

I see what some of you are saying to a point. Though a offensive monk is not a good a healer as a pure healing monk. To be a big heals healer you need to have all your points in Divine Favor and Healing Prayers, now unless you sunk tons of hours into acuiring enough skills points to have Smite and the other 2 at full capabilities (which most people dont have) then youve got to choose whether or not you want to big a big heals healer or a backup smite healer. I for one play a pure healing monk, meaning I hae no offensive skills in my lineup, so If Im being attacked I depend on others to save me, I cannot spam protection or smite skills due to the fact I only heal.
Now If you beef up other classes so if they dont want to have a monk in their party they dont need one, then what is the point in having monk class at all? As it is now not enough people want to play monks. For all you people that say (and I hear this alot in game) El/mo or Mes/mo can heal better than a primary monk, I think that is a false statement, due to the lack of Divine favor skills if you go monk secondary then you cannot "big heals" party members (Divne Boon) yea you may have more energy but that doesnt mean much in the long run especially if you are being drained and just healing people as your energy regens itself, you need big heals to keep parties alive. As for monk bosses they can easily be killed with mesmers or just enough damage dealers, Ive seen many monk bosses go down real quick without much resitance.I guess I just dont understand what the big deal is with this "monk" issue. The class is probably one of the hardest to play therefore not alot of people play them, they are the ones who get yelled at and called names for not doing thier jobs, pure healers cannot save themselves they depend on others, monks all around have a very insufficent way of healing themselves and again depend on others, our armor is pretty weak and a few hits and we are down. We are all in this game together and there is only one healing class, if anything break up the monk into different healing classes (maybe a regen monk, direct heals monk, and some kind of wards monk) but I doubt that would happen. So maybe we do get a lttle bit if a "reward" for playing a monk, but if we get one we get one for doing our work as one, not just being some godly character that can do whatever he wants and get into any group that we want.

Hell Marauder · Jun 02, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

There's nothing wrong having a healing class in GW. Just like there's nothing wrong with having doctor as a profession in real life. Those who complain monks being too important and should be eliminated, when was the last time you went to see your family doctor? Don't doctors deserve to get respect for what they do and pressure they're under? If you see your doctor often, you deserve to live longer than those who don't seek medical attention, agree?

Hence the football team with team physician present can stay longer on the field, that's just common sense. Why are their skills important in every situation? Because we all can get sick and injured, that's why. Anyone objects this simple logic?

Burem · Jun 02, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Before I get on topic i'd like to say that the people whining that secondary monks are as good as primary monks are very very wrong. I've played both an E/Mo(81 power) and a primary monk up past ascenion and there is no comparison; monks heal better.

Anyway, I think the problem in PVE (And PVP but less so) is that the monk bosses are balanced against 8 players. They have WAY too much endurance. They just never run out of power. They can keep themselves alive FOREVER. If after 2 minutes of chain healing themselves they were down to 3 energy like a player would be it wouldn't be a problem.

Kuptain · Jun 02, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Goonter is mainly talking about how monk bosses in PvE are extremely difficult compared to other profession bosses and he would like other profession bosses to have the endurance or tactics of a monk boss.